Atheism Theism Debates
Few months ago I was sent an invite via a extended family member to a popular Atheists vs Theists Debate site. I joined and posted a comment to one of the posts about faith in God. I related that God is only known as He chooses to reveal Himself to His creatures, that is, to man. This was replied to by several as to how one knows what one knows. I replied that our knowledge is restricted to and limited in our common nature and experience; and that God as transcendent and infinite must ever be the first and utmost participant in the revelation and knowledge; that we have no real innate natural ability to reach and find Him.
The site is difficult for me to appreciate since it has such a wide variety of members and diversity. So I did not pursue further interaction. As I continued to read posts from time to time I felt that perhaps just sharing my reasons of Faith in God and His Christ according to the Scriptures and the Christian Church It would be a good thing within my restraints. So here I will also share this for others as well. mjm.
((Here is the first post and replies:
God exists as God, we know Him by His own revelation and interaction with us as His creature; the Scriptures reveals that interaction and intervention. I of myself cannot know Him, or see Him, or find Him. He visits man to find us. I cannot argue for or against His existence except by His words concerning Himself; if that Word is negated or rejected their can be little to debate about that leads to certainty or veracity. Science and philosophy, human thoughts, may say much, but can never say what it does not know beyond its limits of test, sight, hearing, and the like.
CG:Circular reasoning huh?
TW: You do not know him by his own revelation, you know him by your own indoctrination. Geography is the reason for Christian belief. Nothing else.
N.K: How do you know it is God’s word and not just words fabricated by humans?
MJM: To the three above remarks: We all reason in circles at times; and when we are out of the woods we begin on a straight path; and if we cannot find that straight and narrow path we have hope that others might help us. True, our knowledge of Him is based on the doctrines we have learned and believe, and that applies to all things human and natural; no one is different in this regards. If I have no desire or will to know the truth of God, if there be a God, then I will not know what I reject or discard. As in all things we are to be accountable for honesty, sincerity, and diligence. Religion of any kind, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Atheism, is always local, even if it comes to us from afar. All things must begin at a certain spot, the place where you or I occupy. Our knowledge of truth is what it is in us, and to the extent we understand what we know or reject to know. Great men have exercised their minds and skills to explain the thing called knowledge, and what that is in us, both its innate or external, or its phenomena and transcendency it all its variations. Simple folks must be simple: “You will know the truth; and it will set you free.” The Bible must be handled like any other book, and must be evaluated accordingly; but we are the ones that will be tested as to our motives and capacity.))
Why I believe in God according to the Bible and the Christian Church. Reasons 1-5:
1. In Genesis Moses writes that God created all things: the heavens, the earth, all living creatures and animals of nature, and man or mankind. God creates creation, the universe, nature, and the world.
2. In Genesis Man is created in the image of God according to the likeness of God. Man ‘s highest nobility, glory, and honor is divine and infinite in comparison to all other living creatures.
3. God is revealed as above and beyond and before all creation, that the physical world, universe, and nature are infinitely smaller and lesser than God. That such a infinite, transcendent, and incomprehensible God to be known is revealed in human terms and words common to man and human experience.
4. God as so revealed and so known has a purpose for all creation, but a greater purpose and will for man that He has never abandoned or forgotten.
5. God is revealed and understood to be good, and goodness along with wisdom, truth, right, mercy, and countless qualities and attributes of His Person and ways are to be seen and reflected in man.
(Here are the replies to the second post:)
1.PPJ: None of those are reasons to believe. You don’t even know if the bible is true. As a matter of fact, it’s not. It has to be the most altered of all the holy books.
MJM: Reasons to believe may vary, as reasons not to believe as well. If I did not know or believe the Bible is true I should not give it as the reason of faith. If I did not know or believe that America is a great country I should not say it is a great country. To say America is not a great country does not make my statement true; and to say the Bible is not true does not make it false. To make a statement of belief or disbelief does not establish truth or veracity; it is only a witness and a testimony, which may be debated, as it usually is. To say that the Bible is ‘the most altered of all the holy books’ is logically meaningless as a rebuttal to this argument, for it carries no content of validity on one hand, or instruction on the other. Thus it is said of Shakespeare or Confucius or Plato we don’t know if he really said or wrote this or that or anything; but few will take this dubious criticism seriously.
2.CP: How arrogant to think that god looks like us.
MJM: If Moses thought that God was some Super Giant Man like Zeus or Jupiter or any anthropomorphic image or hero or idol then arrogance might be a fit remark; but since Genesis has no such notion or doctrine, as well as the rest of the Bible, this accusation is groundless.
3.NK: OP: so basically you are using the Bible as evidence the Bible is true. Do you know what Circular Reasoning is?
MJM: “The components of a circular argument are often logically valid because if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.” The Bible is not true because of our faith, nor because we say so; and in the contrary it is not false because of unbelief or criticism. I come to the Bible (this was and is my experience) and hear or read what it says to me, and its claims laid hold on me, did something within me, and I became alive inwardly to new things. God became personal in the words of the Bible. My struggle to know, understand, to believe continued as I sought to follow. Those who rejected the Book also became my test and experience, as it is here and now. I have listed 5 reasons of faith, which as God permits, I will add several others.
4.CP: The bible is inaccurate because it’s a collection of legends based on oral traditions. There was no garden of eden, no global flood, the sun never stood still and no one ever survived three days in the digestive system of a marine creature. It’s not “may not have happened” it’s “didn’t happen.” The basis of your belief are the stories a desert tribe used to tell themselves around the campfire thousands of years ago. Personally, I like the Aztec creation story better.
MJM: As I have said the denial of something does not negate assertions; a Garden of Eden, Noah’s Flood, Joshua’s Long Day, and Jonah’s Whale [are] spoken of from ancient times, and are old enough to be legends. The ancient stories of the Sumerians before Moses speak of the Blest Dilmun (Paradise) and the Great Flood, for me to deny of what they speak does not alter the existence of the story. The oral traditions, legends and the like, are indicative of the thing which we are seeking. What is that? The facts and truth behind the stories, and for which the legends and traditions are passed down from generation to generation. I need not explain the astronomy of the long day, nor the possibility of a man surviving, or dying and reviving, in a whale’s belly, for a few days, to believe its possibility. There are countless stories everyday that we are told that seem impossible, yet are true for those who have investigated. The Genesis stories are related by Moses as God’s spokesman; the tribes were ignorant of most of these things; and confused by Egyptian and Sumerian stories.
As to the Aztec Creation Story (Stories) its been a few decades since I read some [of] these. Perhaps you might briefly relate the details of the Aztec Creation that we might rightly compare it with the Bible version.
5.TM: The bible is true because It says so.The bible says god exists. Therefore, it is true that a god exists.
MJM: As I said before, God exists , if He exists, because He exists, whether we believe or deny, but not because we say or believe. Gandhi existed because he existed not because someone said or believe so. Its laughable and illogical to make reality dependent on faith as proof; its even more comical and silly to deny one’s being, existence, or reality because one does not know, believe, or ascertain such. This applies to the Bible as to all other literature, sacred or common.
Why I believe in God according to the Bible and the Christian Church. Reasons: Posts 3: Reasons 6-10:
6. The world, the universe, and the nature of existence, reality, and life is such that we ask and seek answers, final and ultimate answers. The Bible gives us these answers as a revelation of God in manifestation of Himself to His creation.
7. We have believed in God from our earliest recorded history to the present, and the Bible for the past 2.000 years has been our TextBook of faith and reason of all that pertains to and is related to God.
8. Religions of the world, both ancient and modern, attest to man’s interest and quest for God. Theism as faith in God exists everywhere that man exists; Monotheism is the faith of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, along with some other religious bodies; Polytheism is the belief in many gods and goddesses, deities, spirit beings, subordinate or superordinate divine supernatural beings or powers of persons or things to which man is dependent or subject to in ways good and evil. These ideas, doctrines, myths, notions, and systems all indicate man’s religious and spiritual nature as the Bible shows.
9. Philosophy from ancient times to the present teach us that God exist of necessity in reality or experientially, that the world is a reflection of the Divine Order, that nature manifests a Transcendent Correspondence, that creation reveals a Creator, Designer, Maker, Former, Architect, builder, and much more. The many philosophical systems and doctrines, both in agreement and in contradiction, are all witnesses to man’s unique and Biblical place in the universe of time and space.
10. Science from ancient times to the most recent advancement of knowledge and technology in every field and intellectual domain of the schools and societies of the highest learning and specialization establish the Biblical God is wise and perfect, profound and inscrutable, and ever interesting and intriguing. Science in both knowledge and understanding is leading us as captives back to the God of the Bible, the God of truth, the true God.
NK: I don’t find your reasons for believing in God to be rational or credible. I will remain an atheist. Let me know if you ever find *valid* evidence of God.
MJM: Fair enough; my rationale may not convince you, which doesn’t matter as to truth or love; so if further reasons incite or entice you towards God we will all rejoice.
NK: I don’t understand what you just said, but I will say that you worship someone who (if he exists) is currently torturing my mom and sister (and billions of others) in a lake of fire, which I don’t find very loving.
MJM: I wish to share your pain, or at lest offer sympathy or empathy, in whatever way that I can; as you did not understand my hope towards you, I likewise do not understand your grief and charge. God, if He exists as we are willing to say, and if the Bible is true as to His will and ways, then how do we understand an reconcile eternal torments, human sufferings, and evil everywhere? I will not presume or pretend to know your beliefs or reasons, but that is why I accepted the invite to join and interact. I cannot reply to you charge against God in regards to your loved ones; we can only discuss or debate to discover truth without malice or prejudice towards those who are of another way. With respect and concern, I can only offer thoughts and prayers.
NK: Sorry, you belong to an organization whose policy is to torture all God unbelievers in a lake of fire, so I cannot not accept your sympathy or empathy as sincere. If you God exists I can reconcile eternal torments and suffering with him being a psychopath. You need to reply to my charge in regards to my loved ones for me to even consider that you actually care about them. I do not want the thoughts and prayers from an accomplice to their torture, thanks anyway. Good thing it’s imaginary.
MJM to NK:
1.”Sorry, you belong to an organization whose policy is to torture all God unbelievers in a lake of fire, so I cannot not accept your sympathy or empathy as sincere.” We do not set the rules of the universe or the creation. The Bible speaks of the Lake of Fire for judgment on the Devil and his angels, for the wicked, for all those oppose to God. If God exists as God, if the Bible is true, then the judgments are true and just accordingly. God cannot allow His creatures to disregard His will and ways without eternal consequences. If we are His creatures as the Bible reveals, then we have His spirit of life, His breath of life, His portion in and of our soul: for the Bible says: “In Him we live and move and have our being”. And again that the dead all live unto Him, for He is the God of the living not of the dead.
2.”If you God exists I can reconcile eternal torments and suffering with him being a psychopath.” To judge that the God revealed in the Bible is evil and cruel is not our place as creatures; we read of Him as good and merciful, ever and always seeking to win and woe man back to Himself. The Bible does not reveal a psychopathy in God, but rather God as a Father and Savior, as El Shaddai, the Nourisher and Nurse for His children. But the Devil, Satan, the Old Serpent is revealed as the enemy to man and God, and psychopathy and sociopathy resides in him, for he is the originator of all such disorders, sins, and crimes. The Devil’s greatest lie and deception is to past on that God is a Devil like himself. No God is a good King, and there are many lords and kings who wish to dethrone Him.
3. “You need to reply to my charge in regards to my loved ones for me to even consider that you actually care about them. I do not want the thoughts and prayers from an accomplice to their torture, thanks anyway. Good thing it’s imaginary.” As I said before, I do not presume to know of your loved ones, real or imaginary, but only can respond to you and your words. The God of the Bible loved the world, mankind, His creatures, and exhibited that love in grace to do what was necessary to redeem and reconcile us to Himself. The world has not regarded His will or ways for a very long time; and we have become vey cruel to our own kind, leading to unbearable ills and woes in our cities and nations. Yet despite the thousands of years, the many generations, He still sends words of mercy and kindness to us and to all men everywhere. Many that we in malice and hate consign to eternal fires in our judgment are safe and saved by Him, and those who we wish to excuse their evil and wickedness He will not allow to escape that day and hour. He is revealed as One Whose eyes and heart looks on the poor and needy with the greatest and most tender care; but we will not have it so. Though we discuss and dialog in imaginary notions, yet reality is only a step away.
NK: 1. I don’t care who sets the rules, torture is amoral and I could never side with a torturer. Torturer is not just. It is psychopathic. You are defending burning people in a lake of fire. You sound like a serial killer.
2. How come its okay for you to judge God but not me? Seems hypocritical…
3. What you think is love is psychopathic indifference. That’s what happens when you derive your morality from a mass torturer.
MJM to NK: 1. You object to Torture as immoral, unjust, psychopathic, and as serial killing. This applied to the God of the Bible is your reason for unbelief and rejection. Torture and torment as used in this way judges God as evil and an Evildoer. But the Bible does not present such a God to us. In Genesis we see examples to the contrary: in Adam and Eve’s disobedience God does not strike them down in cruelty or death, but judges them with a long term sentence that has continued to this day. Again, in Cain killing his brother Abel God deals with him before and after with mercy in judgment. Again, Abraham pleads with God in regards to the doom of Sodom and Gomorrah, that surely the Judge of the world will do justly and rightly to not destroy the just with the unjust. So too in many other examples throughout the Bible. But on the other side God being just, righteous, and true cannot ignore evil to exist or continue without a Divine response. This moral necessity is judgment, and judgment as torment, and to the judged some call it torture. Punishment whether human or divine, individual or collective, private or public, or any such analogies may consist of torment or torture. To be tormented or tortured by guilt, grief, regret, mistakes, sins, and crimes are the just and natural consequences to certain moral actions. God as the Supreme Standard of morality must exact the proportionate measure of judgment and justice, just as in human terms the laws, state, government, and the like authorities, also punish, judge, and execute or afflict the convicted.
2. If I judge God I am wrong, and in what I judge Him once recognized I repent. I like Job may argue in error or reason about God and His actions, but I ever seek to understand the Almighty in His judgments. The Monarch, Sovereign, King, Emperor, Potentate, and Prince may among men do wrong, make mistakes, give commands and directives that lead to great sufferings and distruction to the people, yet are not thereby out of necessity chargeable to evil or guilt. If God is God then the right and judgment belongs to Him as it is to no other.
3. A case in Noah’s Flood may be examined as to God’s judgment: Adam and his progeny, his seed, are shown to be God’s creation and creatures, they were originally provided for in a somewhat idyllic nursery, they disobeyed and were exiled to live in the world as we now have it. In there[their] banishment by divine judgment they are allowed live outside direct divine constraints or regulations. In a few centuries man was so depraved and corrupted that God saw only one man still righteous and good before Him. Being God as God could make a new creation just as easily as before, yet He chose to preserve or save Adam’s seed in Noah and his family. He preserved and saved animals for man in like manner. The Flood was was of nature and of the heavens and the earth in waters, rain, rivers, seas, and wells or fountains beneath the earth. True He could prevent these things from bringing destruction, yet the used them in nature as He as ever done, is His Divine prerogative. And having done so, decides to never thus judge again, although man will not change. A conqueror at war, as Caesar and the like, he comes, he sees, and he takes, and in his conquest does as he pleases with the conquered for better or worse. God as Lord conquers human nature in many ways like what we see in nature and the world. His love and mercy as God is very longsuffering, a few thousand years are for Him only a few days. This is the Bible’s God and Judge and Savior.
1. The reason for my unbelief is your inability to provide valid evidence God exists. The fact he would be a mass torturer if he did exist makes him unworthy of worship. The Bible presents him as a mass torturer.
2. Incoherent gibberish.
3. Incoherent gibberish.
MJM to NK: I cannot change your verdict against the God of the Bible as to His existence or judgments. I thought of a quick reply and then just move on, but then I reconsidered by delaying for a couple of weeks to review and reexamine some writers and works against God or the Bible as interpreted by the Christian Church. Although I have always as a Bible believer since my conversion in 1969, being 17, read or listened to works critical against faith, religion, Bible, and Christianity, and have continued to do so to this date, yet some writers have made significant impact on my thoughts and beliefs. There are too many to lists, but a select few I thought best to reexamine. I did not review Michael Shermer of the Sceptic Society and Scientific American, or Richard Dawkins books, or others currently active against the Bible versus science; since these writers and scholars are fairly fresh in my memory, and their arguments add little to the older classical debate. All admit the newest science are ever altering long held views. I did review very fully and carefully Andrew White’s History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom; and Robert Ingersoll’s Some Mistakes of Moses, etc.; and Thomas Paine’s works (Age of Reason, Common Sense, Rights of Man, etc.); and Voltaire’s works (Philosophical Dictionary, etc.); and finally the most important of all Bible critics, and the earliest of the modern world, laying the foundation for all the others since the 17th century (1650 on), namely Spinoza.
Since you regard my reasoning from the Bible as “incoherent gibberish” it is clear we have no proper grounds to debate or discuss the Existence of God and His Rights. I daily spend a hour in morning keeping with the news, and often the words ‘incoherent’ and ‘gibberish’ are used as accusations by the media against certain, celebrities, experts, politicians, scholars, and the like. The Media so speak against each other on the left or right; the Republicans so charge the Democrats, and in turn the other repay the like compliment; and thus the modern against the ancient, the atheists against theists and the reverse, and so too Bible is often judged. Now it so happens that the language of skepticism is fond of such terms, although they are guilty in like manner of their own opinions and ideas. Both Ingersoll and Paine were fond of these words levelled against the Bible and Bible believers. Therefore I intend to briefly cite these Bible critics and sceptics with their own reasons and rationale against God and Scriptures as witnesses to their supposed superior wisdom and honesty. Afterwards, God willing, I’ll return to more reasons I believe in God according to the Bible and the Church.
Robert G. Ingersoll: “Some Mistakes of Moses”, etc. (1833-1899, “the Great American Agnostic”, teacher, lawyer, veteran (Colonel), and political freethought orator; son of abolitionist and controversial Congregational preacher, and co-worker of Charles G. Finney. He was a great admirer and promoter of Thomas Paine. His greatest accusation against the Bible God was Hell. His greatest convert to Christ was Lew Wallace (veteran, General) of ‘Ben Hur’.
Ingersoll examines the Pentateuch (Five Books of Moses, Genesis-Deuteronomy), to point out some hundred examples of Some Mistakes of Moses. He does not believe that there was ever a Moses in Egypt, nor the Israelites, and thus the Pentateuch does not have one letter from Moses’ hands. After a few chapters by way of Introduction he takes in hand Genesis and examines the Creation Week from Monday to Sunday, all of which occupies half of his book; the second half treats Genesis 2 to Deuteronomy. The entire examination is simplistic and childish, with many “incoherent gibberish” passed on as valid criticism. It is this kind of Biblical Criticism and Skepticism that, early as a young Christian, reinforced my faith in Scriptures, and thus in God’s existence and rights. Others have answered in detail Ingersoll’s Bible critique in his days and the decades that followed, and they are to be found, so I will not trouble the reader.
Ingersoll says: “He who endeavors to Control the Mind by Force is a Tyrant, and he who submits is a slave.” This he thinks is a wise saying, and applies to God and Moses and the Bible; and he has come along to save Americans and the world. For the mass or common folks are slaves as long as they believe without doubts. He finds human failure or defects as grounds to deny and reject the Bible, as if all men in all places in all collective unions and groups, families, nations, and the like, are not chargeable to this argument rebuke. To him priestcraft is the prime evil, and orthodoxy must be the first evil destroyed; and thus if the Book is shown false the rest is all lies, myths, and superstition. Thus he goes on whining against tradition, creeds, and religion for several chapters. His father’s faith, he without blush, chides as the ‘Andover Factory’, being ignorant and fools. He would have us admire and extoll “Voltaires, Humes, Paines, Humboldts, Tyndals, Haekels, Darwins, Spencers, and Drapers”, instead of “the Lord Jesus Christ”. He wishes clergyman to be freethinkers and speakers while wearing the cloak of the Gospel, to pretend to serve God and Christ by destroying very subtly the Bible as the Word of God. No, not by leaving the ministry but using it in this deceitful manner.
Thus he gets to Genesis 1, the Creation Week, and he ignorantly (though he is an intelligent man) commences the start of the week on Monday instead of Sunday, ending on Sunday instead of Saturday; and attributes this false order to Moses. He attributes his false chronology to the Bible, and his superficial hermeneutics to divine inspiration; but these are all Ingersoll’s Mistakes. His reasoning about creation, time, life, and the world or nature is all confused as to what the Bible actually says in the written words; he constantly reasons from his own belief of what Christians and Jews and others teach about what the Bible says. We all fall into this error; but we are blamable when we claim authority to judge or criticize and are not guarded. Another Mistake of Ingersoll is making the Bible a Science Book, or a History Book, and the like. So Ingersoll has Eternal Matter as the reason he cannot believe that God created Eternal Matter because he cannot understand that if God Who is Eternal created Eternal Matter, how could He be Eternal. He cannot see or understand that his notion of time and space as of the natural world, order, universe, reality, if created by One Who, as the Creator, creates creation outside of, beyond and other than time and space (time-space), that this One as God exist and subsist in what we cannot name or comprehend in natural terms or human language. Thus the Bible, in Genesis, by Moses, says God (Elohim). Even a babe can understand this truth and fact, that the world in all that we see and hear and know, things living and inanimate, visible and invisible, or in any other words , names, and terms from a child to a genius, was made and created and birthed from God: therefore the Bible says: “in Him we live, and move, and have our being”. To be continued.
8. Ingersoll’s Mistakes of Moses Continued:
(1) “In the time of Moses, it was perfectly safe for him to write an account of the creation of the world. He had simply to put in form the crude notions of the people. At that time, no other Jew could have written a better account. Upon that subject he felt at liberty to give his imagination full play. There was no one who could authoritatively contradict anything he might say.”
(2) “It was substantially the same story that had been imprinted in curious characters upon the clay records of Babylon, the gigantic monuments of Egypt, and the gloomy temples of India. In those days there was an almost infinite difference between the educated and ignorant. The people were controlled almost entirely by signs and wonders. By the lever of fear, priests moved the world. The sacred records were made and kept, and altered by them. The people could not read, and looked upon one who could, as almost a god. In our day it is hard to conceive of the influence of an educated class in a barbarous age. It was only necessary to produce the ” sacred record,” and ignorance fell upon its face.”
(3) “The people were taught that the record was inspired, and therefore true. They were not taught that it was true, and therefore inspired. After all, the real question is not whether the bible is inspired, but whether it is true. If it is true, it does not need to be inspired. If it is true, it makes no difference whether it was written by a man or a god. The multiplication table is just as useful, just as true as though God had arranged the figures himself. If the bible is really true, the claim of inspiration need not be urged ; and if it is not true, its inspiration can hardly be established. As a matter of fact, the truth does not need to be inspired. Nothing needs inspiration except a falsehood or a mistake. Where truth ends, where probability stops, inspiration begins. A fact never went into partnership with a miracle. Truth does not need the assistance of miracle. A fact will fit every other fact in the Universe, because it is the product of all other facts. A lie will fit nothing except another lie made for the express purpose of fitting it. After a while the man gets tired of lying, and then the last lie will not fit the next fact, and then there is an opportunity to use a miracle. Just at that point, it is necessary to have a little inspiration.””
(1): The time of Moses according to the Bible is some 500 years after the time of Abram and Terah (Gen.10); and further removed from Noah and His Sons another 500 years; and from Adam and the Garden of Eden over a thousand years (1500 years or more determined by different chronologies, which are all conjectural) (Gen.5). Bob died before Sumerian writings were discovered and unearthed, before its non-Semitic language was deciphered, and the thousands of cuneiform scripts translated to reveal a lost and hidden world going back 2,000 years before the Babylonians and Egyptians. This was the world of Dilmun of the Black Headed Axe Wielding People who survived a Great Flood and resettled Mesopotamia from north to south. From these the later stories were borrowed and modified. Samuel Kramer has given to us many “Firsts” from Summer an Accad; and both the Egyptians and Babylonian-Assyrian-Chaldean learned many things which are well known today. Thus this Mistake of Ingersoll by ignorance is forgiven.
(2): In the study of the First Historical Writings of the Ancient World in the Texts we read of the Education System of even children, boys and girls, of leaders and common folks, of lawyers as well as craftsmen, all interacting in a religious society. They always pointed back to a near and a distant past when people were related to gods and goddesses as a family and kingdom. Science was at an infancy, and exploration was a novelty. The power did not reside in the Priest but in the King, and Kingship was a Divine Institution; the King being the embodiment or manifestation of God. Ingersoll was mistaken in this also. What Bob describes would not develop for several thousands of years after the Sumerians. Moses comes in during the period that the knowledge of the ancient Sumerians was fading away, as taught by those Orientalist most familiar with these things. , and may be examined in Prichard’s “Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating to the Old Testament”, and many such works.
(3) Bob’s Logic is that Truth needs no Divine Inspiration, and need no miracles or claims. Moses writes as taught of the God of Israel, the God of Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, a new version and history from Creation to the Exodus. The details of the many stories, myths, doctrines in circulation from Adam to Moses is here addressed, corrected, and revised. The Creation of the Universe, Earth, Man, the World and Nature, are now set forth in the way God desires to teach Israel and mankind. He teaches us that 2 + 2 = 4, but not all the elements of math or science or history. What is, is truth, and when truth is known as truth, without error or contradiction tested, truth is proven true as a fact or reality. What we understand of truth is altogether a different matter. Thus, man in seeing the world and nature, the universe in all its many parts and ways, things of God, or a Power, Force, Something or Someone or Someplace, in place of God. The truth remains, God is and exists as God whether known or unknown or understood. Our inherited and innate ignorance is what must be instructed in ever slow increments till we see and know the truth. That is what education means, a leading and guiding to the truth; and once the truth is known it sets us free; thus we have in John 8: “Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed Him, If ye abide in My word, [then] are ye truly My disciples and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” To be continued…..
NK: Do you know what gish galloping is?
MJM: “Neil Duane Tolbert Gish, American biochemist and a prominent member of the creationist movement. A Young Earth creationist, Gish was a former vice-president of the Institute for Creation Research (ICR) and the author of numerous publications about creation science. Gish was called “creationism’s T. H. Huxley” for the way he “relished the confrontations” of formal debates with prominent evolutionary biologists, usually held on university campuses. A creationist publication noted in his obituary that “it was perhaps his personal presentation that carried the day. In short, the audiences liked him.”
“The Gish Gallop should not be confused with the argumentum ad nauseam, in which the same point is repeated many times. In a Gish Gallop, many bullshit points are given all at once.”
“”If I were wrong, then one would have been enough!—Albert Einstein, commenting on the book 100 Authors Against Einstein”, Wikipedia.